About Me

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I am the Pastor/Teacher of Rivers of Joy Baptist Church in Minford, Ohio since August 2008.  I am married to Charity since June 14, 1969.  I have four grown children.   Having served in the local church for over forty years as Pastor/Teacher, Asso., Youth Pastor, Minister of Education, Building Upkeep, Camp Director, Sunday School Teacher, etc. Also I have worked in the public place for as many years as I have preached. Charity and her sister are co owner of Union Mills Conf. (Bakery) in West Portsmouth Ohio

  • My dad’s ministry lasted as far as I know nearly forty years. Donald and I were born in Lynchburg, Virginia in 1947, 1948. Dad was pastoring there. Then we moved to Roanoke in 1950 and lived there until dad died in 1966. Preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ was dad’s life. It seemed that we were in church all the time. Dad was preaching revivals, or he was preaching in the Gospel Tent Meetings. The only Gospel I knew was the kind that dad preached. Quite simple in terms, but I believe it was right. So how do I know? By the result of the preaching, and the evidence of those who were saved.
  • I realize that the Gospel of Jesus Christ never changes. People have been saved the same way from the beginning. By the grace of God, by faith in God, and by trusting God in obedience to do His will.
  • I am still working out in my own mind, how this process took place with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, Isaiah and Jeremiah and Nehemiah and Ezra, and Samuel. When I have the answers I will write an article. "How were people in the Old Testament Saved?"
  • Are people saved today the same way that people were saved in my dad’s day? Well, the answer to that is simple: YES.
  • If I remember one thing about the preaching in my early days, there was a lot said about "repentance." I understood that for a person who wanted to be saved, there was a need of repenting of their sins, and obeying Jesus Christ in all that Christ asked us to do and be.
  • It seems over the years, preachers have gotten away from preaching repentance, and obedience. It’s more "just believe by faith and you will be saved."
  • I have finally woke up to the fact that there are people in this world who are not Baptist. (Well, in the last thirty years). I think the Hell fire has gone out of a lot of preaching today. I think a lot of "repentance" has been removed from a lot of sermons preached.
    I remember at FBC I spent a lot of time talking about "salvation." I would point out the results of one who has been saved. If you have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, here is what will happen.
  • Today people will turn to Television and here a lot of religious teachings that are false. But to the unbeliever they do not see any different in Joel Osteen’s preaching and Paula White’s teaching than they would mine. So as a pastor I need to be clear from Scripture to point out what the Gospel is, and how God brings one to a saving knowledge of Himself unto salvation.

What must a sinner do to be saved?

To this question, we answer as Peter did in Acts 2:38, "Repent;" and as Paul and Silas did in Acts 16:31, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." We echo the words of Romans 10:9, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved." To confess (willingly acknowledge and affirm) Jesus as Lord (meaning God, the sovereign Ruler of the universe—Php. 2:10) involves both allegiance and worship. And to believe in your heart (meaning trusting completely in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross) involves dependence. Saving faith necessarily includes both of these elements: allegiance (or affection, devotion, and worship) and dependence (or wholehearted trust). The sinner must turn from his sin, which 1 John 3:4 defines as lawless rebellion, and turn toward Christ. To "turn from" is to repent. To "turn toward" is to believe.

A repentant faith, then, is what God requires.

As Paul described it in 1 Thessalonians 1:8-9, saving faith evidences itself in a turning from idols to serve and worship the living and true God. "turning from idols" includes turning from the idolatry of self-love. "Turning to serve God" necessitates giving Him first place (Exod. 20:3; Mark 12:30). To claim to have turned to God, and yet remain in rebellion to Him, is to deceive oneself. Or as the apostle John said it, "If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth" (1 John 1:6).

Repentance, then, is essential to our evangelism.

This is why Jesus Christ commanded His apostles to preach a message of "repentance and remission of sins" to the unbelieving nations (Luke 24:46-47). Peter, in evangelizing the Jerusalem crowds, commanded his hearers to "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19). The apostle Paul, in his evangelistic sermon on Mars Hill, said that God "commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30). He later said, in his evangelistic sermon to Agrippa, that his message to both Jews and Gentiles was "that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance" (Acts 26:20) And he did this because Christ himself had commissioned him to do so, "that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in [Christ]" (v. 18). Free Grace advocates may assert that it is not necessary to include repentance in our evangelistic presentations. The Word of God (from these verses and others) says otherwise. What God commands and Christ commissions, we must do. (Contributor Nate B)

Drafted by Charles E. Whisnant 11-15-16 2006 Proof read by Charity Whisnant Posted 11-17-06
Saved under file 00 11 15 06

{A brief outline or general view and a record of events in the order of their occurrence}
Part Two
"What must I do to be saved?"
TODAY NOVEMBER 28TH IS MY 100th Article.

I don’t remember dad talking about how many were saved on Sunday or in a tent revival. That didn’t seem to really concern him. He didn’t seem to be concerned with numbers, but he did have real genuine love for people. People loved dad, especially those who were in our church and those who had been in his church in another town or state.
  • One other story: Fate and Zelda Spencer in Hildebran, North Carolina. Fate was a drunk, and he came to a Tent Revival that my dad had in that town. He came one night with a gun to kill my dad for preaching, but that night he came and he was saved. For the next thirty plus years was dad’s best friend. His whole family came to know the Lord. Some of my best memories are when we visited them in their home. They were dad’s best friends. Dad had a lot of best friends. About once a year Fate would call and say "Everette, why don’t you come down this week and I will get the boys a pair of shoes and buy you a new suit." That was the pattern for a number of years. And we love the girls June and Sue.

I don’t remember the sermons, nor remember the invitations. But I saw the result of the work of the Lord. Dad would be 102 years old this year. I know that the Lord does the saving, but I know it’s by the means of the preaching of the Gospel. Dad must have preached a great message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
  • Well, maybe another story. Dad loved Tent Revivals. In those days a Tent meeting could last up to a month or more. One place was Amelia, Virginia. I remember that Revival. For over a month, dad would preach during the week and then come back to Roanoke and preach at the church. We would stay in a home for the week, and then drive back to Roanoke on Saturday night. I can remember playing in the sawdust on the ground. I still have a vision in my memory about that place, and dad standing up there preaching, and then seeing people come forward. For years later we kept up with folks that were saved.

Whatever Gospel message Dad preached, it worked. The Lord saw fit to use my dad to see some folks come to know the Savior. What was great about this is that many became friends of ours for a long time.
  • Maybe one other and I will quit. Lynchburg, Virginia. Dad pastored a church there, and after dad moved to Roanoke, he would return to Lynchburg at least once a month. One of our friends was a funeral director Mr. Tomlinson who was in charge of the Lynchburg Cometary. We would go and visit. Don and I would visit the graves each trip. The family was saved when dad was the pastor of the church in Lynchburg. (Macel Pate Falwell was the pianist in dad’s church when she was just a young girl.)

What ever the Gospel that dad preached it worked. Amen.
  • Okay, another story: The Unroe family, who was saved in a Tent Meeting in some town. The family had several girls. One was named Judy Unrow, and she was my girlfriend. The family would come up to Roanoke and sing for us. Judy asked me to marry her when I was sixteen years old in a letter she had written. I asked mom about this matter and she was not too happy with that at all.

Well I better quit for tonight. Charity is in bed, she is asleep with the light on and her glasses still on and the book on her lap. Sometimes the book is in her face. She has worked since 5:30 this morning until 6:00 p.m. tonight. She deserves a rest. It’s nice that Thanksgiving pies are only once a year!

Drafted by Charles E. Whisnant, and Proof Checked by Charity Whisnant and I called my mother Pauline who lives with my sister Ellen in Texas..

  • Mom is 84 years old and I asked mom about the events that i
    mention above and she remember the people and places.
  • My sister Ellen who lives in Texas, e mail me to tell me that mom liked to remember these days.
My point is: Even if you didn't know about Lordship Salvation, I believe that Christ will still be your life style. A Christian will be know as someone who Knows Christ and wants to be just like Christ.
A brief outline or general view and a record of events in the order of their occurrence}

I certainly remember my early childhood days growing up in a pastor’s home. Every day seemed to be filled with church ministry activity. Our house was one of the first Bed and Breakfasts. Some family, some preacher and wife, some friends, some evangelist seemed to be eating breakfast with us. The conversation around our house was about church evangelism, church growth, and Christian discipleship.

Dad was always in a dialogue with an evangelist, or missionary, or pastor about the ministry of the local church. They would talk about what the Bible had to say about current issues of the day. In those days, we didn’t have a television, and I remember sitting listening to those conversations .

This is how Donald and I learned to play church. In our preteen years we lived next door to our church. Our play time would be going over to the church to play Sunday Morning Church. I would preach and give an invitation and Donald would lead singing and would get saved during the invitation. So the altar call, or invitation was a part of our life. Then Donald and I would switch roles.

Dad’s preaching always seemed to draw people to Jesus Christ. I had a very healthy respect for Jesus in those early years. I was always conscious of the power and authority that Jesus Christ had. I was as aware of the presence of Christ in my life as I was with the presence of my dad and mom. They didn’t need to be where I was, but I knew they were there. There were few actions I ever took that I first didn’t think, "What would Jesus do, and how would dad react."

The gospel preaching of my dad had an early affect upon my life. The energy with which he lived had an affect upon me for life. I felt if I could live like him and preach like him that would be my life’s goal. Then I turned twelve.

The Gospel I heard in my father’s church was : The truth? I can’t remember. It was 1966 since I heard him preach his last sermon.

What I remember is my dad’s preaching was topical. My memory of my dad’s sermons is gone. I can’t hear him preaching in my mind. There are some recorded sermons of dad, but I have no idea who would have them.

What I do remember was people coming forward in the service and that they were coming to be saved. One illustration was my friend Melvin Gray, as a teenager I was teaching the Youth Class, and Melvin was a young adult who became a great friend of the family. One Sunday Night in our church service, I was standing beside Melvin, and when we had the invitation, he walked forward that night because he wanted to be saved. And for the next few years that I was in Roanoke, Virginia, Melvin’s life was changed.

There were many like Melvin who were saved. Twenty years after my dad died we went back to Roanoke, for a Roanoke Baptist Temple/Whisnant’s Reunion. The number of people and families that were there was amazing. They told stories of how they came to Christ as a result of the ministry that dad had in Roanoke. It was just astonishing.

The reason our home was always filled with friends was because they were friends who were saved, humanly speaking, because of the preaching of the gospel by my dad.

In 1998 I received a phone call from Asheville , North Caroline. The family that was on the line said, "Is this Charles Whisnant, whose dad was Everette Whisnant?" I said yes. "Well this is Mrs Grady Harden. Your dad started a church here in 1940's and our family was saved. We lost contact with you and your family after your dad died. I want you to know that the church is still doing good and people are still being saved."

I loved going to Red House, Virginia, when I was still at home. The Arrington family lived there, and dad and mom would go to visit them at least once a month. Why? Dad was used of the Lord to see there whole family come to know the Lord. There were I think six children, and they were all saved as well as their mom and dad. Irene, and May andAnn, Linda, June, the three girls, started a singing ministry, and even today they are still singing. They were our first girl friends as kids. June married a young man, and he is an evangelist. Forty years later the children of that family are still singing and serving the Lord.

When the Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached, and God brings people to Himself and they are saved, the result will be that they will become believers for eternity. Those that are saved will become obedient to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, even if they don’t know what that position says.

Dad did not preach doctrinal messages that I can remember. The simple Word was taught. I know his library was filled with doctrinal books, (I have some of Spurgeon’s books that he had, so I know he knew the Word.)

My point of this is: In those days, the effectiveness of dad’s preaching must have worked. The method of an altar call, or an invitation must have worked in those days, at least in dad’s church.

I will finish this part next.
Drafted by Charles E. Whisnant 11 - 24-06 Proof Checked by Charity Whisnant
Part Eight
Part Two of John MacArthur's Just how faithful must a Christian be?
"Ryrie suggests that if we cannot state precisely how much failure is possible for a Christian, true assurance becomes impossible. He wants the terms to be quantified: "Could he turn away almost completely? Or ninety percent? Or fifty percent . . .?" To put it another way, Ryrie is suggesting that the doctrines of perseverance and assurance are incompatible. Astonishingly, he wants a doctrine of assurance that allows those who have defected from Christ to be confident of their salvation.

There are no quantifiable answers to the questions Ryrie raises. Indeed, some Christians persist in sin for extended periods of time. But those who do forfeit their right to genuine assurance. "Serious sin or unwillingness" certainly should cause someone to contemplate carefully the question of whether he or she really loves the Lord. And those who turn away completely (not almost completely, or ninety percent, or fifty percent) demonstrate that they never had true faith (1 John 2:19).

Quantification poses a dilemma for no-lordship teaching, too. Zane Hodges speaks of faith as a "historical moment."" How brief may that moment be? Someone listening to a debate between a Christian and an atheist might believe for an instant while the Christian is speaking, but immediately be led back into doubt or agnosticism by the atheist’s arguments. Would we classify such a person as a believer? One suspects some no-lordship advocates would answer yes, although that view goes against everything God’s word teaches about faith.

Jesus never quantified the terms of salvation; he always made them absolute. "So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions" (Luke 14:33); "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me" (Matt. 10:37); "He who loves his life loses it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal" (John 12:25). Those conditions are impossible in human terms (Matt. 19:26). [Even those who want to make these statements of Christ apply to a post-conversion step of discipleship don’t solve the dilemma of their absoluteness.] That does not alter or mitigate the truth of the gospel. It certainly is no excuse for going to the other extreme and doing away with any necessity for commitment to Christ.

Ryrie’s comments raise another issue that is worth considering. It is the question of whether lordship teaching is inherently judgmental: "How long can I be fruitless without having a lordship advocate conclude that I was never really saved?" Zane Hodges has made similar comments: "Lordship teaching reserves to itself the right to strip professing Christians of their claims to faith and to consign such people to the ranks of the lost" (Absolutely Free 19).

Certainly no individual can judge another’s heart. It is one thing to challenge people to examine themselves (2 Cor. 13:5); it is entirely another matter to set oneself up as another Christian’s judge (Rom. 14:4, 13; James 4:11).

But while individual Christians must never be judgmental, the church body as a whole very definitely has a responsibility to maintain purity by exposing and excommunicating those who live in continual sin or defection from the faith. Our Lord gave very explicit instructions on how to handle a fellow believer who falls into such sin. We are to go to the brother (or sister) privately first (Matt. 18:15). If he refuses to hear, we are to go again with one or two more people (v. 16). Then if he refuses to hear, we are to "tell it to the church" (v. 17). And if he still fails to repent, "let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer"" (v. 17). In other words, pursue that person for Christ as if he were utterly unsaved.

This process of discipline is how Christ mediates His rule in the church. He went on to say, "Truly I say to you, whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven"" (Matt. 18:18-19). The context shows this is not talking about "binding Satan" or about praying in general. Our Lord was dealing with the matter of sin and forgiveness among Christians (v. 21ff). The verb tenses in verse 18 literally mean, "Whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." Our Lord is saying that He Himself works personally in the discipline process: "or where two or three have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst" (v. 20).

Thus the process of church discipline, properly followed, answers all of Dr. Ryrie’s questions. How long can a person continue in sin before we "conclude that [he] was never really saved?" All the way through the discipline process. Once the matter has been told to the church, if the person still refuses to repent, we have instructions from the Lord Himself to regard the sinning one "as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer."

The church discipline process our Lord outlined in Matthew 18 is predicated on the doctrine of perseverance. Those who remain hardened in sin only demonstrate their lack of true faith. Those who respond to the rebuke and return to the Lord give the best possible evidence that their salvation is genuine. They can be sure that if their faith is real it will endure to the end—because God Himself guarantees it.

"I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus (Phil. 1:6). And "I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day" (2 Tim. 1:12).
John MacArthur


Drafted by Charles E. Whisnant
Part Seven

How Faithfully Must Christians Persevere?"How much obedience is enough? Twenty percent? More? Less? How do we quantify our obedience?"
Just how faithful must a Christian be?
  • The general purpose of this "GROW BY LEARNING" BLOG has been for the purpose of writing my journal of how I have grown by learning. I have tried to write my thoughts of events that have happen in our family life and ministry. In this journey I have grown in maturity, (well maybe) and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have tried also to record the development of thought about ministry. The development of preaching and teaching.
  • Generally I have just written for the express purpose of my family. Along the way, now only three months into this journey and ninety six posts, there are a few more who from time to time drop by "GROW BY LEARNING." For the present its still my purpose to write about my journey, and my growth in the Christian life. Periodically I will address an issue that I think would be neat to think about, but again its from my perspective, and has been part of my experience in life and ministry. I have tried to make this Blog "GROW BY LEARNING" how my personal thinking has moved and developed over the last fifty years.
  • One of those perspectives that I have dealt is the topic of "Preaching the Gospel." If there has been an issue in my ministry its been over "Preaching the Gospel." The issue of what does the Bible teach about "salvation." How does a person become a Christian. And how do you know if a person really has become a Believer. The issue is how you preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
  • And in these last seven Blogs, or threads, or articles I have tried to address my perspective, and how I have arrived to my understanding on this issue. I am sure this issue will take more then seven articles, but I will try to enter weave this issue in with articles as we go along.

Today I want to continue to address the issue Just how much do we as Christian have to live like Christ in order to be said "He is a Born Again Christian."

I will refer you to the link below that will address this issue. The article is from this link. Phil Johnson over at "PyroManiacs"
http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/11/17/how-faithfully-must-christians-persevere/ Phil Johnson

These last seven posts have been as a result of the Pulpit Magazine’s Nathan Busenitz articles. Though this issue has been a part of my personal journey in ministry for over forty years.

The following article is taking from John MacArthur’s book, an excerpt from Faith Works: The Gospel According to the Apostles (189-92).
I will post this article in Part One and Part Two. (For the sake of the length)

"After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you" (5:10).

Can you grasp the magnitude of that promise? God Himself perfects, confirms, strengthens, and establishes His children. Though His purposes for the future involve some pain in the present, He will nevertheless give us grace to endure and persevere. Even while we are being personally attacked by the enemy, we are being personally perfected by God. He Himself is doing it. And He will accomplish His purposes in us, bringing us to wholeness, setting us on solid ground, making us strong, and establishing us on a firm foundation. All those terms speak of strength, resoluteness.

The Problem of Quantification (to determine or express the quantify of:)
Inevitably, the question is raised, "How faithfully must one persevere?" Charles Ryrie wrote,

  • So we read a statement like this: "A moment of failure does not invalidate a disciple’s credentials." My immediate reaction to such a statement is to want to ask if two moments would? Or a week of defection, or a month, or a year? Or two? How serious a failure and for how long before we must conclude that such a person was in fact not saved? Lordship teaching recognizes that "no one will obey perfectly," but the crucial question is simply how imperfectly can one obey and yet be sure that he "believed" . . .?

. . . A moment of defection, we have been told, is not an invalidation. Or "the true disciple will never turn away completely." Could he turn away almost completely? Or ninety percent? Or fifty percent and still be sure he was saved? . . .

Frankly, all this relativity would leave me in confusion and uncertainty. Every defection, especially if it continued, would make me unsure of my salvation. Any serious sin or unwillingness would do the same. If I come to a fork in the road of my Christian experience and choose the wrong branch and continue on it, does that mean I was never on the Christian road to begin with? For how long can I be fruitless without having a lordship advocate conclude that I was never really saved? (So Great Salvation 48-49, emphasis added).

Part Two: Next

Drafted by Charles E. Whisnant 11-20-06 (Charity is working at the Bakery) Thanksgiving A record number of pies. Over 200 pies and over 150 dozens rolls. Debbie and Charity, Pauline, Tammy, Rich and Sonda have worked hard this last week. My little part is in the clean the floors and making flyers.

Part six

How Faithfully Must Christians Persevere?
"How much obedience is enough? Twenty percent? More? Less? How do we quantify our obedience?"

1 John 5:10 ¶ He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in him: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son.

Ver. "10. He that believeth on the Son of God, as a divine person who came in the flesh, and obeyed the law, and brought in everlasting righteousness, and obtained life and salvation for men: he that with the heart believes in him for righteousness, and eternal life, He being the Son of God, truly and properly God, and so is able to save all that believe in Him."

John Gill’s thoughts , but I put this in its final form.
With this next statement you need to stop and think through each statement:

"hath the witness in himself;" of the cause, need he stands in of Christ, and of the acceptable appropriate, fulness, and excellency of Him..
The Spirit of God edifying:

  • him into the foulness of his nature,
  • his feebleness to do anything spiritually good,
  • his inability to atone for sin.
  • The insufficiency of his righteousness to justify him before God;
    and influencing him that nothing but the blood of the Son of God can cleanse him from sin.

Only Christ’s sacrifice can atone it, and Christ’s righteousness justify him from it, and that without Jesus Christ he can do nothing.

Witnessing also to:

  • the mastery of Christ blood,
  • the completeness of His sacrifice and satisfaction.
  • The excellency of His righteousness,
  • The energy of God ‘s grace and strength.

So man comes to have such a witness in himself, that if ten thousand arguments were ever so artfully formed:

  • in favour of the accuracy of human nature,
  • the power of man's free will, and
  • the sufficiency of his own righteousness,

and that witness in himself against

  • the sacrifice and righteousness of Christ,
  • the dignity of His person, as the Son of God,
  • which gives virtue to Christ’s blood, sacrifice, and righteousness,
  • they would all manifest nothing to him, Christ would be proof against them.

And therefore he would immediately receives into him the testimony God gives of His Son, of the glory and excellency of His person, and employs it in himself..

I know I am a child of a KING., the LORD of LORDS.

Salvation is not something we do. Salvation is a person - Jesus Christ. If we are IN Him, it is a settled matter.

  • Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
  • 2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
  • Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
  • John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
  • John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
  • John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
  • 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The issue before us in this discuss is:

The sinner’s role in salvation. How much does God redeem the elect?
What happens at regeneration? Is the believing sinner really born again?
Is our old nature really dead. "crucified...that we are no longer slaves to sin?
Are believers really "partakers of the divine nature?"
Are those who are "in Christ, really a new creature?"
Can we say that as new believers that we are free to live righteous?"
Is there a call for the unbeliever to repentance?
Does repentance add something to the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone?
Is obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ part been born again?

"How Faithfully Must Christians Persevere? "This statement was what Charles Ryrie wrote:

These last six threads have been as a result of reading the posts over at Pyromaniacs. Phil Johnson started the thoughts, then Nathan Busenitz (personal assistance to John MacArthur) These articles appeared also on the Pulpit Magazine, an online magazine of the Shepherds’ Fellowship. The issue was LORDSHIP SALVATION.

In 1988 John MacArthur wrote the book "What Does Jesus Mean When He Says, "Follow Me"?
"The Gospel According To Jesus" I brought the book in July 1989. And I have read this book several times. The principles set forth by John MacArthur became the position that I took while the pastor/teacher at First Baptist Church, in Altoona, Kansas.

John MacArthur points out in his book: "This is the purpose of salvation: to transform an individual completely. Genuine saving faith changes a person’s behavior. , it transforms his thinking, and it puts within him a new heart." (p. 96)

So these last six articles I have posted have been a result of over twenty posts and some 1000 comments that have been made. And I have down loaded them. (Some 400 pages).

Drafted by Charles E. Whisnant

Part five

From part four:
Here is a great divide in thinking.
  • If a person has made a decision for Christ at any time in their life, they are saved.
  • If a person has been baptized he is saved.
  • If a person lives right and goes to church he is saved.

Well, it is surley possible that any of the above folks could be saved but if they are resting upon the outward actions only for their salvation, there would be a need to examine their thinking.

I personally believe, salvation is a gift from God. I believe that He in His wisdom saves those whom He in His wisdom saves. He brings those whom He wills to be saved to Himself. Personally, I do not believe that God leaves that decision up to man to make totally on his own.

I do believe that many made a decision that they would like to be saved, until they realized what that means. I have given the plan of salvation to many, who went right along with what I was saying and even prayed the prayer. But they were not saved. Why? Good question. But in many cases they really didn’t believe what they were doing. And God hadn’t opened their heart unto salvation.

Of course, you could ask the question, if a person went forward in a service as a response to the invitation of the preacher, and prayed the sinner’s prayer, why wouldn’t they become saved? Most people would think every one that is saved in a revival in the Philippines, or New Zealand, or Mexico are going to be saved. Some believe every person who walks the aisle in a Billy Graham meeting is going to be saved. I only wish that every person would be saved.
So if they have the mind to be saved, why then aren’t they. Some believe they are. They say, it’s not a matter of what happens necessarily after this event, that you are saved. I have had mothers say of their adult children. "My son was saved when he was five?" And her son has not been in church since he was a child. I think many do what they believe they are told to do to be saved, but are not saved.

"But the idea of "saving faith" apart from good works, is ridiculous. The saved man is not a perfect man; but his heart's desire is to become perfect, he is always panting after perfection, and the day will come when he will be perfected, after the image of his once crucified and now glorified Savior, in knowledge and true holiness."We cannot be saved by or for our good works, neither can we be saved without good works. Christ never will save any of His people in their sins; He saves His people from their sins." Charles Spurgeon

"There is no one who can live in sin,——drinking, swearing, lying, and so on,——who can truly declare that he is one of the Lord's chosen people."Charles H. Spurgeon



[Charles E. Whisnant]


{Charles E. Whisnant}


Drafted by Charles E. Whisnant Proof Checked by Charlity Whisnant

How Faithfully Must Christians Persevere?
"How much obedience is enough? Twenty percent? More? Less? How do we quantify our obedience?"

1 John 5:10 ¶ He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in him: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son.

Salvation is not something we do. Salvation is a person - Jesus Christ. If we are IN Him, it is a settled matter.
What happens when you tag yourself as a "Calvinist". You bring along all that goes with that term.

Over the last forty years I would say I have not questioned my born again experience. I certainly have examined my life in light of the great gift of salvation given to me in Christ Jesus. This self examination is not to determine if I am saved. I know I am saved because the Spirit within me affirms this in my spirit.

Maybe because I have preached for so many years on this subject of salvation, I have examined myself as I preach. I don’t go to bed each night wondering if I am saved.

I believe you can have assurance of your new birth in Christ. When I preached, I generally taught the principles of Christian living. My thoughts were that I certainly knew that my performance will never measure up to the height I would love.. My performance was never in the view of earning my salvation. That is impossible to accomplish. But out of a deep love for the Lord, I desired and was willing to serve Him the best I could. I always wanted to do more.

When I was saved, there was a change in my thinking, even at seven. At least my thinking became willing to listen to my dad preach from the Bible Certainly I didn’t know any theology, but I knew I wanted to be obedient to my dad and to obey his wishes for me. What he believed, I believed. If he said this is what the Lord would have me to do, I was all to willing to do.

I do think there are a lot of groups of people who really believe they are going to Heaven, but from my understanding of the Bible, they are not going. On what assumption do I judge that on?

Most people who believe in a Heaven, believe they are going to heaven when they die. Some do not believe in a life after death. There are those who have all kinds of ideas about what Heaven is going to be all about. Three-fourths of all people in the world are not of the Christian Biblical mind set. But they believe in God. The Jews, Muslims, etc. all believe in a god or God. And they believe that they are going to the same Heaven Christians are going to. Well, some groups do.

How many, even in America, believe that they are a Christian, because of a decision that they made in a fundamental church, or even in a Catholic Church, or in a Lutheran or Methodist church Even at a Billy Graham meeting, how many have made a decision, and most really believe they are saved and have little fear of not going to heaven.

Of course, as Christians, we believe only our viewpoint of salvation is the right view. All the various groups within our Christian sphere have different points of view.

I know it’s our responsibility as preachers to teach the truth of the Word of God. If any teaching we should know that is correct, it should be God’s plan of Salvation for His Elect.

There are believers and preachers who have different views of the way a person becomes a Believer.

  1. One group will say, you need to earn your way into heaven.
  2. Another group will say, you are saved when you put your faith in Jesus Christ, believe and be baptized. Simply : believe by faith in Jesus Christ. Simply pray the sinner’s prayer and you are saved.
  3. Other groups will say, it’s not by any works, or words, but by grace alone.
  4. Some groups say you need to be saved and baptized.
  5. Some say you need to join their church and obey their laws and perform their rituals.

I had one man to tell me, "I am an atheist, but I will go to heaven, because I was sprinkled when I was a baby." Uhhhh that is a good one, and I believe he really believed that.

Another person will say, "I was saved in church when I was seven, and was baptized, yet I have not gone to church my entire life." I went forward in a Revival or a Billy Graham type meeting.


Drafted by Charles E. Whisnant, 11-17 Proof Check by Charity after working

at Union Mills Confectionery 11 - 18 - 06

Part Three
"What must I do to be saved?" and that he has been born again.

{A brief outline or general view and a record of events in the order of their occurrence}


  • Paul Harper will present the Gospel in the message, and give a request that those who are not saved would open their heart to the Lord.
  • Frank T will present Christ in the message. He will specifically point out that salvation is by grace "alone" and faith "alone." There is no invitation, but the weekly Lord’s Supper.

Today I would continue to preach the text as I have, yet I believe that within the message I would present an invitation to respond to the spirit of God.

Now the question is again: "How would I state the invitation, what would be the specific wording .

How can I, as a preacher, present a clear biblical presentation of the Gospel that is a "true gospel." Do I advocate "Lordship Salvation" or "Free Grace Salvation."

A Baptist pastor here in Portsmouth said to a group of us. "How do you present the gospel to a lost man?" Well, I have been doing this for a number of years. Had I been wrong?! Had I made the assumption that some were saved, when they weren’t? That is undeniably frightening. Did I bring about "false conversions"?


  • Often it’s "will you take Christ as your Savior." Will you bow your head and pray a prayer asking the Lord to forgive you of your sin and change your life and come into your life." Would that be correct? Could a person truly be saved?!
  • The lordship position, however, does not teach salvation by works. But it does teach that anyone who has been truly saved, at the very moment of salvation, is given by God a supernatural love for the Savior (John 8:42). And that the love of the child of God will evidence itself in good works (John 14:15).

I asked this question to Lou, and Nathan (Pulpit Magazine)

  • When a saved person has been "born again," what has the person done? If I believe salvation is given to a spiritual dead person, or a lost person and he is born again by grace alone, through faith given to him by Christ, at what point has the person done something? Are we talking about the result of salvation that a person responds to been born again? Does a lost person have to respond by his faith, given to him by God? When does a lost person sense repentance? Does contrition, or repentance take place after the born again conversion or before his coversion, or perhaps at the same time?
  • Often in speaking to an individual or even while preaching, I will bring out "To be born again, is by the Spirit of God, and occurs in the lost person when the Holy Spirit open the mind of that person, and that person will understand, his need of a Saviour? Does all this happen all at the same time? He is saved,
    forgiven, adopted, infused into Christ, and justified all in a single moment. Then, if I might use that term, the now saved person, is totally aware of his need of salvation, and a saving Savior, and thus as a result of this work of Christ within him, repents and is willing to submit himself totally to the Jesus Christ as His Lord and Savior.
  • I thank the question is, will the lost person who has been saved, by grace, result in leading that person to
    confess Jesus Christ as his Lord, and this leads to repentance of sin and rebellion toward God?
  • I really think this is serious discussion.

  • Charles Whisnant on the Pulpit Magazine November 15, 2006 @ 11:43 p.m.
Lordship sees Christ’s once-for-all substitutionary sacrifice on the cross as the only and final payment for sin, and as the only and final means of salvation. It is salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The faith of the New Testament, however, is not mere lipservice. It is instead a repentant faith that comes to God on His terms through His enabling, with an empty hand and an open heart. To forsake our sin (which 1 John 3:4 defines as "rebellion") is to be willing to submit to Him. To forsake our pride (as the Publican of Luke 18 did) is to also forsake our own selfish, rebellious agendas and self-worship. And to forsake idols to serve the living and true God (as the Thessalonians did [1 Thess. 1:8-9]) is to cease from false worship and begin worshipping God (cf. Exod. 20:3; Mk. 12:30). It necessarily includes love and devotion.

Presenting the Gospel with a view to Christ’s Lordship
  1. Those who come to God for salvation must believe that He is (Heb 11:6). God has revealed Himself, His nature, His work, and His words exclusively in the Bible. It is the God of Scripture we are talking about.
  2. Secondly, we must present man and his sin. Man is out of fellowship with God (Isa 59:1-2), in rebellion to God (Eph 2:1-2), under the judicial wrath of God (Rom 1:18; 3:23) because he is a sinner by nature (Ps 51:5) and choice (Ps 51:4). Man rejects God’s rule over him choosing a god of his own making (Rom 1:18-25). Sin is a rejection of God’s person, his rule, his law, his authority, and his provision. Sinners do not believe or trust God.
  3. Third, we present the Lord Jesus Christ and His Provision. First, we present that Jesus is Lord (Rom 10:9-10) which means that Jesus is God and has the authority of God (Col 1:15-19). Second, Jesus is Christ (Matt 16:16). Not only does He possess all of the authority, power, and prerogatives of God, but He is also the Anointed One of God, the One chosen to be the means of salvation for all who respond to Him with repentant faith. His cross work is complete, finished, and totally sufficient as the payment for man’s sinfulness and the imputation of perfect righteousness (1 Cor 15:1-4; 1 Jn 2:2; Rom 4:4).This is all a matter of grace (Titus 2:11). Man does not deserve such provision (Eph 2:8-10). A sinner’s good works or human merit does not commend him to God in any fashion.
    Pointed out by Michael Harding

The question we need to ask, and its not wrong to ask the qustion "How do I believe I was born again, and became Christian Believer, ?" What was the event that I believe I was saved?

Drafted and Posted by Charles E. Whisnant, Proof check in part by Charity Whisnant #93

Part Two
The John MacArthur’s Lordship Position vs
The Lou Martuineac’s Position

{A brief outline or general view and a record of events in the order of their occurrence}


What changed in my teaching was to present the text in its context as clearly as I could. To give as clear an interpretation of the portion of scripture as I could, and then I stepped back as it were, and said "Lord, I have done my best in presenting the Word, now it’s your turn." That was my invitation.

So the Lordship position combined with the Doctrine of Grace, known as Calvinism:

  • Calvinism teaches that salvation is initiated by God, not by man (John 6:44). It is wholly a work of God in which He imparts new life to the spiritually dead sinner (Eph. 2:1-10). Conversion––which includes regeneration, faith, and repentance––occurs in a moment of time, in which God creates a new spiritual life. Thus, according to the reformed ordo salutis, regeneration has causal priority over faith and repentance. This is simply a way of showing that God initiates salvation, enabling and empowering the sinner to believe and repent. Like Jesus told Nicodemus, "Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

So the evolution was:

  • A gospel Roman Road presentation sermon and invitation and inviting people to come to Jesus and receive Him by faith. Every service was ended by giving a "invitation for someone to be saved." Whether the message was on salvation or not. (1964-1982)
  • In teaching expositionally, verse by verse, the passage of Scripture set before me. And then at the end of the message, we had prayer, and generally a brief time that anyone could respond. I did not give any appeal at all for any response. (1983-presently).

So the question to me is in the method of preaching and the appeal for someone to respond to the Word of God.

  • First method of "preaching the Gospel of Salvation and then giving an appeal for the lost to be saved.. Secondly, the method of teaching the Word of God expositionally and within the message give an appeal to be obedient to the teaching of the Word.

Now my concern has become this, did those who sat under my ministry in those first years receive adequate teaching of the Gospel that would have brought them to a true conversion to Jesus Christ? And the identical question is on the other hand, when you simply teach the scripture as it is before you, and then you simply trust the Lord, that He in His sovereignty will bring to Himself those whom He will.

Several observations from these two methods of preaching or teaching and the "invitation."

  • There certainly was no reference to "Lordship Salvation" position in the first method of presenting the Gospel.
  • And the second method was decisive in the manner when referring to the Gospel of Salvation of making Christ your Lord and Savior. Coming to Him in personal trust to worship, love and serve Him.

Now again I ask, were people saved in using both methods? If in either case, people were saved, why would I prefer the second method versus the first method?

  1. No altar call at the end of the services vs. five verses of Just As I Am.
  2. Expositional preaching versus topical.
  3. Preaching the content of the text only , i.e. without necessarily always bringing in a salvation message versus hitting sin every sermon.
  4. Teaching the scripture, rather than an emotional, theatrical preaching style.
  5. Teaching the idea of the sola’s. Rather than "you made a decision for Christ."

Yet I would hope that neither approach is "false gospel," and that God has the ability of saving His elect in either format.

Now we come to the present 2006. What do I understand now about:

  • The presenting of the Gospel message.
  • In giving an invitation to receive Christ as Savior, and Lord.


  • I heard Paul Harper preach at Bigelow Church several times. He is from England, and he is very theatrical in his preaching. His preaching is topical in form. But what I learned is that within the message he would insert and gave an invitation to receive the gospel into their lives. He would do this several times, "open your heart to the voice God." That was the invitation.
  • Frank, the pastor at Bigelow Church, here in Portsmouth, is an expositional preacher. He teaches from the Old and the New Testament books. He will address what the chapter and verses are teaching. And there is no invitation given at the end of the services. What I have noticed of late is that in the messages Christ will become a part of the message itself. Every message will bring in Christ at some point.

Part Three Next

Drafted by Charles E. Whisnant Proof-Checked by Charity 11-15 06 #92

Part One
The John MacArthur’s Lordship Position
The Lou Martuineac’s Position
in defense of the gospel

Both sides tend to believe that the other is a "false gospel."

{A brief outline or general view and a record of events in the order of their occurrence}

If I introduce the gospel to a lost, unsaved person at church, in my home, or somewhere else, what am I going to tell him how to be saved. Could I use any of the more popular material to show a person how to be saved?
Should I be concerned about how I present the gospel to him, or more concerned to see the result of presenting the gospel?

Having preached for some forty years, you believe you have correctly presented the Word of God in a truthful manner, and you have not preached a false gospel.

It seems if your position theologically is based upon the sovereignty of God, and that God in His sovereignty has the final say as to who has been born again, and that He in His wisdom has chosen those who will be saved then that is a comfortable belief. That is, in the end, it’s the Lord’s decision as to who comes to be saved.

On the other hand, if you believe that man has the final word as to his own fate and salvation, it could be a little unsettling. If one’s salvation hinges upon a right understanding of the Word of God as he hears the Word preached, that too is a little unsettling.

Also, if the presentation of the Gospel has to be perfectly presented for one to be saved, that too could be a little unsettling.

From my early years in ministry and preaching as a teenager in youth revivals, and my own church, the method of presenting the Gospel was rather simple. In the process I gave little thought of the results of the preaching, and did little follow up on those who "made a decision" for Christ in a revival.

My first church I pastored for three and half years, I presented the Word of God in a manner that I believed was correct biblically, and there were those who came and "were saved." I certainly did not question their salvation. For the most part those who "made decisions" were believed to be genuine conversions. The conclusion was that they were born again. Based upon what I presented as the gospel, they were saved.
Then ten years later at our second church I was pastoring, our focus on preaching/teaching became expositional in nature. As we taught through the book of Romans for five years, our understanding of salvation and the means where by one was "saved," changed.

  • We began to look upon the result of ones "decision" to be saved. We started to view one’s attitude and thinking, and behavior in relationship to his desire to be a Christian.
  • What changed was, we didn’t seem to accept someone’s "decision" to become a Christian, at face value. We might have at the moment accepted the decision that they were making to become a Christian, based upon our presentation of the gospel of being born again.

Based upon what we preached and presented to them, the "how" to be born again was what we believed to be correct. As I remember (1980-1996), I didn’t mention that salvation was by the "five "solas". Grace alone, faith alone..... the alone’s were never a part of the presentation. In the sixteen years I was the pastor/teacher, I don’t think I mentioned those terms. But I taught those ideas.

What I did was to teach verse by verse the book of Romans in 1984 and then in First Peter in 1995-96 . One of the opening statements I made from I Peter chapter One.

  • Reading 1 Peter 1:1.... that is to say, God has chosen us, sovereignly, by His unaffected, divine will. Strictly on the basis of His own free sovereign grace.
  • He predetermined to set love on certain people, from all the world, and they are the elect. That is the nature of our election. {Sermon 60.4 page 46 from my manuscript.}

I also addressed this "Election" when I preached from Ephesians: When you teach word by word, you are going to have to deal with this sovereignty issue.

  • Then upon reading John MacArthur’s "The Gospel According to Jesus Christ" in 1989, the Lordship position became a factor in my thinking.

"The gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ’s authority."

That, in a sentence, is what "lordship salvation" teaches"

Drafted by Charles E. Whisnant, Proof Read by Charity 11-14-06 #91

The lesson we need to learn is:
Bloggers have their idea of lessons needed to be learned from this sinfulness behavior of Ted Haggard: (and many others)
  1. That we are every inch as sinful and imperfect and intentional and depraved as Haggard; perhaps more so.
  3. If ANYONE says they are above this kind of sin, may God grant him/her a tiny view of their heart that they may see their need for Christ Jesus on a daily basis.
  4. The fear we should have is NOT that we would fall into the same sin, Tim.
  5. The fear that we should have is that you are correct, that whether that sin manifests itself or not we are really still just as sinful in the core of our hearts as Rev. Haggard
  6. While we are always to be growing in grace, we are always to be reminded of the presence of and battle with indwelling sin.
  7. Who said "simul justus et peccator" i.e. simultaneously justified and sinful.
  8. The church, New Life Church, did not cover up or make excuses, acted swiftly and honestly and has not made light of the scandal.
  9. We shouldn’t conclude that church members should expect anything different from their pastor, since we’re all sinners.
  10. I think churches should consider hiring godly men who lead holy lives, rather than looking for good men who have oratorical gifts. Too often the godly men are run out of their pulpits so some cool, media personalities can be put in their place.
  11. I have read a lot about the "grace principle." Grace does forgive us.
    But grace is something more. Grace is what provides us with the power for godliness.
  12. I read this statement: "We are all just like Ted." Then we are all in trouble. My comment is the salvation that is given to us by Christ does not leave us "just like Ted." Romans 8:3-4
  13. We need to check what kind of faith we think we have that we believe will keep us from sinful behavior. Many have a misconstrued faith.
  14. "Within each of us there is a herd of wild horses all wanting to run loose." Wallace Hamilton wrote.
  15. "Like a river that breaks its levy, that drive that leaders have, often strays into areas of excitement and risk that can be dangerous and destructive. Gordon MacDonald
  16. Have you noted that the truth of a person’s life, comes out little at a time.
  17. There always seems to be a series of disclosures, and admissions are slowly coming. Why? Maybe he is lying to himself, or cannot face the truth of his behavior.
  18. Even though you are a power leader, you are just as lowly as the person who cleans the very church you started. Perks and privileges, the honor, have all gone. Because you might think you deserved them.
  19. A lovely wife, and five children. They will suffer as much.
  20. Sexual temptation is where we are held least accountable and where we can fall fastest.

  1. I had a rule while I pastored: Under no circumstances, to ride alone in a car with a female other than my wife or an immediate family member
  2. I did not counsel a woman in a closed room . And Charity generally did this.
    I would not hug women, or put my arms around them. I did not hug.
  3. I would not focus on the external looks, or read anything into behavior toward me.

    What would I do if Ted Haggard walked into First Baptist Church and I was the pastor and was preaching that Sunday?
    I would be rather surprised. I would not publicly humiliate him. (That has already been done.) I would teach the message that I had already planned to preach. I would trust the sovereignty of God that the message would be the one God planned for Ted to hear.

What would I say to Ted Haggard if he came to Charles E. Whisnant for counseling? Or any one else.

Many times in my father's church, fallen preachers came to our church, there were five to seven preachers and their family in our church. They came for healing, physical, and spiritual.

You might ask "Why would those who say they are believers, get caught up in this kind of behavior? Why didn’t their faith prevent their crimes and sinfulness? I don’t want to write a sermon here, but we as preachers certainly have preached on this topic a number of times.

Drafted by Charles E. Whisnant 11-09-06 Proof Check by Charity 11-13-06 and Posted 11-14-06


The lesson we need to learn is:
I hope to provide some lessons we need to learn in this blog.... read on.

What bloggers have done, almost the instant that an event happens, they will post it. They will make comments For example: Posted by fundyreformed.wordpress

  • "I was saddened to hear of the Ted Haggard fall this past week. And I must confess that when it became apparent that he was guilty, for a short while I may have sneered at him. But before long God gave me a prayer that Christ would be exalted in all of this. I believe that prayer is being answered, and Christ’s glory is being seen even in this sad scandal"
    P.S. What I have learned, if you write something, you better be ready to be quoted.
    Then there are responses to the article. So you get several perspectives and viewpoints.
    Now after reading several articles on the blog. For example: Albert Mohler’s blog or his web site, you get another perspective I can trust .

Also what I have found very beneficial are those blogs that link you to other articles that speak to the issues. For example: John Piper had an article: "Ten Potential Pitfalls and Proposed Ten Protections against them:" now that was very helpful.

The Ted Haggard’s exposure has been one that a pastor/ teacher/ and a minister should personally look upon with great observation.

Rather than judge Ted (whom I have never met), I should examine my own life and behavior.
As a minister it is our charge to call sinners to repentance. It is our charge to call believers to holiness and sanctification. Too often there are secret life styles of preachers, that go un- detected for years. I would think that would certainly be disruptive with his call and discredit his ability to lead others. But I am afraid this occurs too often.

  • He quotes these verses:
    Ps 32:1 ¶ <<[A Psalm] of David. Maschil.>>. 3 When I kept silence, my bones wasted away Through my groaning all the day long.4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: My moisture was changed [as] with the drought of summer. [[Selah:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, And mine iniquity did I not hide: I said, I will confess my transgressions unto Jehovah; And thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. [[Selah 6 For this let every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: Surely when the great waters overflow they shall not reach unto him"

This behavior, you would think, would not happen to evangelical or fundamental preachers, would you? Sadly this kind of behavior happens every day. We only hear of the big time guys. I always said "I am glad I am a little guy. If I fall, it won’t make the national media. Local media would be bad enough."

And generally this kind of life-style happens to those whom you would least expect. I personally can name a few. I was totally shocked.

What this does for me? A quick check up of my own behavior. Some of the very preachers that I would not suspect are the very preachers that are living a secret life of sinfulness.

As you read the blogs you certainly get different points of view: For example:

  • "It's time for evangelicals to rethink their priorities, re-examine the evil fruits of pragmatic and market-driven "spirituality," and retool their own movement. Better yet, Christians with a concern for the glory of God and the authority of Scripture should renounce the latitudinarian-style movement contemporary "evangelicalism" has morphed into. It is a hopelessly mixed and muddled multitude. The fashionable brand of NAE/Christianity Today-style "evangelicalism" actually abandoned historic evangelical principles long ago, and hasn't taken a firm stand for biblical and evangelical doctrine for some time. The current scandal is only a symptom of that much deeper problem" Phil Johnson http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2006/11/thoughts-on-todays-scandal.html
    And there were 82 Responses to Phil’s post. Here is an example:
  • Assuming he is guilty, I guess we throw out the baby with the bath water and all evangelicals are heretics because of this one man's fault. For that matter all fundamentalists are equally heretics because of the recent downfall of Dr. Bob Gray at Trinity in Jacksonville. When will we all stop this nonsense and understand that this man's sin or the sin of others is not a valid argument for their church or denominational strategy. I expect better arguments from team pyro against market driven strategies.
  • This is a great exchange of views. The Poster will risk what the Postee will say in response.

    Tim Challies remarked on his .com Titled "THE SCANDAL"
  • "And then realize that, as we explored earlier this week in a discussion about total depravity, there is really no difference between you and Haggard or between myself and Haggard. We are all totally depraved with our sin extending to every aspect of our being. There but for the grace of God go I. There but for the grace of God go you."
  • I can only imagine the pain of having to sit in front of my children, my wife, and answer questions about whether or not I have had sex with a man or admitting that I purchased illegal drugs. It's horrible. It's terrifying.

  • And there were 148 comments from his readers.... here is an example:
    "...um, tears are the first reaction to your post. Not for Mr. Haggard, but for me. I can search a dark heart as well my brother. I'm sickened as your are, and over joyed at the reality that my destiny (and Haggards) depends on the Holiness of another! Praise God! . And praise God for this line in your post, "that I would continue to fill my heart with His Words of life". Oh that news like this would only drive us all harder into the word."
  • And who and what are ministers themselves? Frail men, fallible, sinning men, exposed to every snare, to temptation in every form; and, from the very post of observation they occupy, they are an easier target for the fiery darts of the foe. They are not trite victims the great Adversary is seeking, when he would wound and cripple Christ's ministers. One such victim is worth more to the kingdom of darkness than a number of common men; and for this very reason their temptations are probably more subtle and severe than those encountered by ordinary Christians. If this subtle Deceiver fails to destroy them, he cunningly aims at neutralizing their influence by quenching the fervor of their piety, lulling them into negligence, and doing all in his power to render their work burdensome. How perilous is the condition of that minister then, whose heart is not encouraged, whose hands are not strengthened, and who is not upheld by the prayers of his people! It is not in his own closet and on his own knees alone, that he finds security and comfort, and ennobling, humbling, and purifying thoughts and joys; but it is when they also seek them in his behalf, that he becomes a better and happier man, and a more useful minister of the everlasting Gospel! --Gardiner Spring

What should we do about all of this? PRAY FOR OUR PASTORS!!!

Drafted Charles Whisnant, Check by Charity

Part Three in this Series

Each day in a twenty four hour interval, with billions of people all over the world, think of all the happenings that take place! Many of us may think, "I may well be inconsequential in the scheme of things." But is that true?

We might get up in the morning and say, "This day is going to be another insignificant day in the overall design of things."
  1. When John Piper asked Shai Linne hip hop artist to sing at Bethlehem Baptist Church one Sunday Morning, what was he thinking at the time?
  2. When Ted Haggard, pastor of the church he started, New Life Church, in Colorado Springs, Colorado, with over 14,000 in membership, gradually admitted to purchasing methamphetamine and the services of a male prostitute.... What was he thinking? Did he think that his behavior would be "inconsequential in the scheme of things?
  3. When John MacArthur, long time pastor of Grace Community Church in Van Nuys, California wrote the book "The Gospel According To Jesus Christ" in 1988, what was he thinking? Did he think that the book would have little importance in the Christian realm. "

"And it’s true that "I may well be inconsequential in the scheme of things", but in the predetermined thought and plan of God, none of us IS "beside the point" individuals." Charity said, "Who said this?" I said "me." She said, "I like ‘none of us is beside the point." charles e. whisnant

These three occurrences over the last several weeks have made the headlines. One has made the national media spotlight. All three events have made the blogsphere, and the web sites.

So do any of these I have mention have any real significant meaning in the life of individuals? Are they going to affect our churches as to how they will worship? Are they going to change opinions of individuals about pastors and ministers? Are they going to have any effect on what pastors/elders will think about their own ministry?

Should pastors/teachers/ministers even address these issues? What if a member of our church would say, "Pastor Charles, would you approve if Shai Linne would come and perform in our worship services?" What would I even say? Michele what would I have said?

Would I want to address the Ted Haggard situation? It’s been on the news. I would say many of our members have heard about this. They certainly have heard about Jimmy Swaggart.

What if a member picks up the book "The Gospel According to Jesus Christ" and reads this by John MacArthur:

  • "Salvation is by grace and has nothing to do with human works. But the only possible response to God’s grace is broken humility that causes the sinner to turn from his old life to Christ. The evidence of such a turning is the willingness to submit and obey. If disobedience and rebellion continue unabated, there is reason to doubt the reality of a person’s faith" (TGATJ, page 113)

Pastor, do you believe that my husband is saved? How are you going to answer the wife?

What if a member comes and asks, "Pastor, how can we know if your personal life is truly right with the Lord? And how should we as believers respond to those who are accused of actions that are sinful?"

When I was pastor at FBC in Altoona, and when a national Baptist TV pastor was divorced from his wife, the church he was pastoring said he could continue to pastor the church. Several members asked me, "Pastor Charles, would you resign if you were divorced from Charity?" And I said kidding, "No, I wouldn’t have to. She would kill me." "Divorce never, murder, maybe," she is always saying. Right dear?

I am not necessarily fundamentally reformed, but I am not necessarily the same fundamentalist I once was either. (Quick to make judgments and to make statements instantaneously without thinking it through.) I understand that I can’t undo forty years of ministry, and for the most part I wouldn’t anyway.

I have opinions, and I normally express them. Over the years they have been rather clear.

I love to read, and there are enough resources that will address all these issues. Of course, a book will soon come out on these subjects. Christian periodicals will also address these issues, and they have been a part of my reading for years. Also preachers will address these issues, and I will listen to their tapes. Then there are those who are on radio, CDR for example that will address these issues. Of course there is the Bible. And then there is Ron Brown. (He is a long time good friend)

I will address Ted Haggard next, then Piper, and then Lordship Salvation.

Written by Charles E. Whisnant 11-09-06 Proof-read by Charity 11-09 and posted 11-10-06


Daily you can get up-to-the-moment opinions, comments, news and thoughts from a number of Christian bloggers. They are excellent sources of good information. At the moment of an event, or happening, there is a current blogger who will comment on the event.
Get a good cup of coffee, and you are ready to read and write.

On most of these blogs you can post a comment on the post’s subject. And the dialog that can occur in one post provides an excellent source of learning as well.
So if I want to know what John MacArthur thinks on an issue, I can learn that by going to Pulpit Magazine. And if I want to learn what others are thinking about what John MacArthur is thinking I can go to Pulpit Magazine. Blogspot. . If I want what the Christian community is saying about "Lordship Salvation" or "Fundamentalism" I can click on a site and learn. If I want a theologian’s opinion on a current cultural issue I can go to Al Mohler.

As a pastor/teacher, my objective was always to teach. I enjoyed keeping the membership informed on the current issues of the time. Of course, I loved reading. Now I can read blogs, as well as books; but books usually are out of date on issues once the book is printed. What I would do with all this information if I were a pastor/teacher would be entertaining for sure.


To a degree this could be an advantage, because I don’t have as many people to please. I can address any issue without worrying about losing members. Currently I am writing a journal of our ministry experiences. I can be honest as to what I believe were the events surrounding the ministry. Charity is saying, "Do you really want to say that?" And I will say, "Yes."

Certainly there are those men whose voice is much greater them mine, that is for sure.. There are those who write 100% better than I., but this blogging has been a personal endeavor. It’s been a personal journal that I have been willing to put on the Blogger.. I didn’t know at the time when I started that all you blog and post is on the www. That could be interesting. Just put in my name in the SEARCH-Goggle and you will find where I have commented on other weblogs. That is scary

"And its true "I may well be inconsequential in the scheme of things." But in the predetermined thought and plan of God, none of us are "beside the point" individuals." Charity said, "Who said this?" I said "me." She said, "I like ‘none of us are beside the point."

So what have I learned about Christian Hip Hopper (if that is possible) and "LORDSHIP SALVATION," and Ted Haggard?
The question
Should Bethlehem Baptist Church, John Piper pastor, have invited a Hip Hopper to sing in the worship service?
Should Ted Haggard of New Life Church, which he founded, agree to resign as pastor because of "sexually immoral conduct"?
The issue of salvation: is it "faith alone" and "repentance"?

What I discover by reading others keeps me in a balanced view of my own opinion. Next time let’s talk about these matters.

What would I say to our membership at First Baptist Church today?

Drafted by Charles E. Whisnant November 06, 2006 Checked by Charity 11/08
Posted 11/09/06